A GLANCE AT ESTONIA - Comments

Persecution of dissidents in Estonia - n/a

n/a — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:36:51 +00:00

Yrjö Rosendal,
What is so special about many of the "Russian speaking people" that they seem to be expecting that people around them must adopt the Russian language and culture wherever they are? Are they too lazy or too uneducated to learn the language of the country they live in?
Why don't you tell us how many "real democracies" are there in the world which will impose on the native population the language of an ethnic minority just because the parents or grandparents of the minority were sent in by the occupying force to replace that part of native population which was eliminated through repressions? Maybe such democracy could be Russia, where ethnic and racial minorities are being constantly killed by nationalists and the police don't pay to it much attention?
So, can you show some real discrimination against Russians? Or is it just that some more of the usual unsubstantiated pro-Kremlin lip service?

Persecution of dissidents in Estonia - Yrjö Rosendal

Yrjö Rosendal — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:22:25 +00:00

I think the situation of Russian minority is really terrible in Estonia.It can be seen as some kind of apartheid. Russian speaking people should have right to use their own language in the schools and work places. This kind of discrimination doesn´t belong to the real democracy.

Some photoes of Tallinn - replica

replica — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 07:48:39 +01:00

<a href="http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/07/17/http://onestoptown.com/">nike shox</a> - <a href="http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/07/17/http://onestoptown.com/">nike air</a> - <a href="http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/07/17/http://onestoptown.com/">nike com</a> - <a href="http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/07/17/http://onestoptown.com/">nike max</a> - <a href="http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/07/17/http://onestoptown.com/">nike air max</a> - <a href="http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/07/17/http://onestoptown.com/">nike dunk</a> - <a href="http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/07/17/http://onestoptown.com/">nike air jordan</a> - <a href="http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/07/17/http://onestoptown.com/">nike jordan</a>

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - solar

solar — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:38:20 +01:00

Communist from South Africa amongst other things, correctly states that his country s facing tremendous problems.

That is certainly the case :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_...

So hats off to him for having the grit to stay there - but he does that in contrast to hundreds of thousands of whites (and others) who have fled for other lands (Canada, the US, Asutralia and NZ) where the 'one man, one vote' policy does not continually deliver a government of racist former 'freedom fighters' who are totally inept at running government. Perhaps these people were a little more circumspect and realise that what happens to whites in Zimbabwe could arguably reoccur in SA.

South Africa is fast becoming a basket case and faces seemingly insurmountable problems (a major one being AIDS).

So I cope Communist from South Africa is not holding up his country as an exemplar for what should be done in the Estonia / Russia situation (which is similar to Latvia/Russia, Lithuania/Russia etc)

Also, it should be remembered that many Russian towns and cities have taken down and removed their statues to Soviet pseudo deities such as Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky, - without any uprising from the local citizenry? So why so much fuss when a sovereign state decides to relocate(notice , not 'destroy') a statue from an inappropriate location in its capital city?

Is there something inherently wrong with that? Or was the fuss really about Russia's loss of face in that it could no longer dictate what can and can't be done in Estonia?

Russia, the former colonial master, is still intent on punishing Estonia, of course all the while denying this.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - n/a

n/a — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:55:28 +01:00

To: Communist from South Africa

"Enforcing [Apartheid] on the black was done in such a brutal murderous way that no claim about Soviet Oppression can match".
I don't know that much about the Apartheid, but I doubt millions upon millions of people, including entire nations, in South Africa were killed or exiled, including to places (in Siberia) where conditions can be compared almost to those in North Pole. Arguably, even Hitler's Nazism wasn't as bad, since Moscow's style communism was responsible for even more death and tortures.

"Their languages are recognized as official languages, just like local African languages. Why can that not be the case with Russians in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?"
See, each of the Baltic states have only one main language (a different situation than in Africa), and nobody tries to deprive minorities of keeping their own language and customs, but the problem is that there is one minority, Russians, of whom many (not all, though) do not want to learn Estonian, or Latvian. They must think of themselves more superior (I cannot find any other reason why they would act this way), and want nothing less than everybody else learning their language.
This is where the problem is with language. If a group of Estonians moved to Russia and started to demand that people around them had to speak Estonian, they'd get beaten up pretty soon.

"One man one vote - why can that not be the case in Estonia?"
But it is, every citizen of Estonia can vote. Many Russians have become citizens, but for some reason there are those who are apparently either too "superior" or just too dumb, so they just whine about some mystical "human rights" abuses.

"Wouldn't this be a good enough reason to keep one statue in Tallinn in place?"
No! The statue was used by several radical elements to stir up Russians' hatred against the country they lived in. It was no forgotten monument, but an actively used platform of propaganda. Should a statue of Hitler be allowed in Jerusalem?

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - Communist from South Africa

Communist from South Africa — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:45:36 +01:00

History aside, it is guaranteed that Estonian Russian speakers will stay in Estonia, they will keep speaking Russian and they will satisfy with nothing less than full equal rights - no one ever agrees to less than that.

So there's no escape for Estonians and Russains to see one another, hear one another and argue with one another for the near and the far future.

Perhaps you can also like one another. I for one, speaking neither Estonian nor Russian, love Arvo Pärt.

South Africa is a point of reference for many here. It is widely agreed that Apartheid was the most notorious racist oppression since the Nazis. Enforcing it on the black was done in such a brutal murderous way that no claim about Soviet Oppression can match.

Post apartheid South Africa is a country facing tremendous problems - poverty, AIDS, immigration from war stricken African countries, and more.

White South Africans, who colonized the country and were the beneficiaries (in the short run) of racial discrimination, are not in power these days. However, they are considered to be an integral part of the nation. Their languages are recognized as official languages, just like local African languages.

Why can that not be the case with Russians in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?

The motto of the national liberation movement here has always been "One man one vote" - regardless of language, race, religion, skin colour, ethnicity. This principle is now applied. It holds naturally for all - including citizens who hold citizenship of other countries.

"One man one vote" - why can that not be the case in Estonia?

Long ago, monuments were erected for Cecil Rhodes and Hendrik Verwoert, champions of British Imperialism and of Fascist Apartheid. The monuments are still standing here, even if the persona them selves are not seen as heroes any more.

The reason for that is that removing these statues might provoke inter-racial tension - something that no-one wants to see here.

Wouldn't this be a good enough reason to keep one statue in Tallinn in place?

After all, if all goes well, both Russian and Estonian will be heard in Tallinn for many years to come.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - History teacher

History teacher — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:03:26 +01:00

Helga, your claim that Russians are a "historical people living in Estonia for a thousand years" is nonsense. Yaroslav managed to capture a local Estonian fort in Tartu region in 1030, and extorted money from the local population for 30 years before the Estonians burned down his fort and kicked out the Russians in 1063, not to return until nearly 500 years later in 1558, to be kicked out again by the Swedes a few years later, until Peter returned in 1721 who kept German as the official language until 1889 when Russification was attempted but abandoned soon afterwards.

Claiming that the Russian language should have official status because Russians are a "state forming people" is as nonsensical as claiming the French language should be an official language of England because French speaking William the Conqueror invaded and occupied England in 1066. While The French culture is mixed with English culture, and England is a neigbour of France, all those French speaking settlers that arrived in 1066 and after, all eventually assimilated and all speak English today.

The only apartheid that exists in Estonia is in your own head. Forget your formerly privileged status as colonial masters of the Estonia, learn the local language and make an effort to integrate yourself into Estonian society, and life will be good.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - n/a

n/a — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:44:00 +01:00

"And how You avaluate the help given to Estonia from Russia to develop it?" -- Helga
I evaluate it similar to Josef Fritzl, the man in Austria who was feeding his daughter, yet at the same time holding her hostage and constantly raping her. I think the analogy is fair enough. Would you praise him for "taking care of and helping" his daughter? I hope not, but according to your logic, one should.

"Who is toady's colonialist of Estonia? Say it openly! Are You capable to do it?" -- Helga
Luckily, nobody. But Kremlin (according to many statements of high politicians and military personnel) would like that situation to be changed.

"In the Soviet time the level of life in Estonia was avaluated at the same level with Danmark (FBI report) and now we have a very poor country with great problems." -- Helga
Are you trying to kid only your readers, or yourself, too? Do you really not realize that the economic problems Estonia has experienced are a direct result of Soviet (that is, Kremlin's) "management" (or rather, mismanagement) of economy?
Besides, you consider "Estonia to be a very poor country with great problems"? In that case you should be true to your statements and declare Russia along with over half of all other countries to be just a garbage dump.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - solar

solar — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 02:54:58 +01:00

Helga writes:

".......The link You gave is a JUSTIFICATION of a shamful fact and not the real history."

That is purely your opinion. Throughout this blog you have shown your biases very clearly. For example when you posted pictures of actors in Nazi uniforms - you presented them as being current day Estonian Nazis. You deliberately left out the fact that they were people presenting a play.

In many of your posts you have demonstrated that you are quite capable of deliberately distorting a situation to persuade people that something false is true.

So, in future, please preface statements with 'In my opinion..." rather than pretending they are facts.

".... ... Only some Forest Brothers were the real fighters for Estonia, not the persons who ambraced the Hitler's ideology."

If you re-read the article - you might possiby be perceptive enough to realise the main point - which was that Estonians at that time chose to fight with the Germans against the Soviet Army - because it was the lesser of two evils.

Do you doubt that if they were given the choice at that time they would have liked to remain neutral?

Helga continues:

"......The WWII was a tragedy for the Estonian people, the negative abd shameful events must be accepted with sadness and conciousness and not to be glorified or justified, deceived or falsifyed...."

I totally agree with that statement. I also totally agree with this one:

"......The SOVIET OCCUPATION was a tragedy for the Estonian people, the negative and shameful events must be accepted with sadness and consciousness and not to be glorified or justified, deceived or falsified...."

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - Estonian Veteran

Estonian Veteran — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 19:46:14 +01:00

In the German Nazis Army were only 8o ooo estonians, and not 7o-80%.
From they only 20 000 did it voluntarily.

After the war the civil Estonians denounced the Estonians who was in the German Army and the Forest Brothers to Soviet Authorities.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - Helga

Helga — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:52:59 +01:00

TO SOLAR

The link You gave is a JUSTIFICATION of a shamful fact and not the real history. The real history comprends the collaboration with Russian Bolshevics in 1920 and its consequences, the Fashist regim of Pàts of 1934-1940, the crimes of the Pàts regime... Only some Forest Brothers were the real fighters for Estonia, not the persons who ambraced the Hitler's ideology.

The WWII was a tragedy for the Estonian people, the negative abd shameful events must be accepted with sadness and conciousness and not to be glorified or justified, deceived or falsifyed.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - Helga

Helga — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:40:03 +01:00

TO GIUSTINO

The English are not a state-forming people of Estonia and have not the common history with Estonia and the Estonian people.
The Russianspeaking of Estonia are living in Estonia about thousend years and are the historical people here. The Estonian culture are mixed with Russian culture, Estonia is a neigbour of Russia. You can not compare Estonian Russian(speaking)s with the English, it's a little bit absurd, as the comparing between recently arrived "other linguistic minorities" and ancient Estonian Russian minority is.

The Russian(speaking)s don't need Estonian in the workplace because we have the sistem of apartheid in Estonia: Estonianspeaking persons with non-Estonian roots are not allowed to workplace reserved to the Estonians with right status. Russian(speaking)s have the workplaces for Russianspeakings and the Estonians have the workplaces for themselves only, sometime some exception happens. Russian(speaking)s have no contacts with Estonianspeakings, they see the Estonians only from Language Inspection when they comes to fine.
Very great quantity of persons don't know Estonian and the Estonian state are not capable to offer the manuals (taday manulas are made in sistem "guess the grammar rules by oneself), free courses don't exist, courses for payment are made by low-level teachers, the state schools fo Rusian(speaking)s use the sistem of psycological abuse on children instead teaching Estonian.

Local media in Russian is a parody to serious media, they often use bad Russian and make grammar and style mistakes. The jounalist are often too young, without enough experience. They use prevalently hard USA propaganda and not free and democratic information. Who will see such a media?

In the Soviet time Estonian was a state language together with the Russian language, it was not repressed.

Step by step I shall descrive all the situation in detail.
Here is a link to a blog that tells about apartheid in Estonia: http://pronssisoturi.blogspot.com/ .

The Amnesty Internation rapport about Estonia: http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Re... says: "Estonia's human rights record came under criticism from both the council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights and the UN Committee against Torture (CAT)". The situation of antique Russianspeaking Estonians is not seen as separate question.

Your opinion is based on unsuffcient information, my blog is created with aim to give more information contrastinf deceiption and fauls of the Estonian Government's propaganda.
Non-recognition of Russian as the second State language is a hard violation of the basic rights of the origin Russianspeaking Estonians (Estonian-blood Russophones). I have done the classification to expane the difference, why do You pay attention only to the Soviet time immigrants?

TO HISTORY TEACHER
See the blog www.starover.ee - even there You can inform You that the Russian (Slaves) came in Estonia in about XI ciecle.
You should know that the Setos had been living mixed with Russians: one house Estonian and the next Russian.
Old Beleivers were persecuted by Sweden Government - see their site.

You are under nick because You know that Your saying are not truth and You know perfectly it.

To n/a

And how You avaluate the help given to Estonia from Russia to develop it? Why the Estonian Government (and not the Estonians) appreciates the Sveden time's help and foget the Russian time's help? Don't You see that even today the Government ask for help all around the world? Who is toady's colonialist of Estonia? Say it openly! Are You capable to do it?
In the Soviet time the level of life in Estonia was avaluated at the same level with Danmark (FBI report) and now we have a very poor country with great problems.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - solar

solar — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:18:36 +01:00

http://www.hot.ee/vvliit/inglis_1.h...

Here is an article that totally contradicts the outrageous lies put forward by 'helga' . It has been written (in English) by an Estonian of Estonian descent who lived through WW2 and the German and Russian occupations - and explains well why most real Estonians (70-80%) would side with the Germans rather than the Russians at that time.

Obviously one will appreciate that the authors insights were arrived at through having lived through the events .

This is in marked contrast to people such as the Gen X blogger 'Helga' - who has only read about and fantasised on the actual conditions . And who for some strange reason seems to suggest that Estonia would have been better off being annexed by Russia and enjoying the Rusian utiopia instead of having been allowed the freedom of striking out on its own path..

There is a BIG difference between having insight through life experience and having the pretension to wisdom through reading books.

Who gave the weapons to Saakashvili - n/a

n/a — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:15:21 +01:00

And who gave weapons to those Ossetians attacking Georgian forces, killing and driving out Georgian civilians from their homes (and destroying those homes to make sure they never return)?
Clearly, it is a struggle between Russia and the US for the sphere of influence in Georgia. But Helga, almost all your posts are so one-sided that you are in no way "independent of Russian propaganda" as you claim.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - n/a

n/a — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:53:54 +01:00

Helga, hopefully you'll pay attention to what History teacher is saying and learn some history. Including to what applies to your attempts in comparing Estonia's situation with Switzerland - a comparison that can be called pathetic at best, or openly demagogic at least. Unfortunately, for many Russians (thankfully, not all, though) this problem can be solved "with respect and dignity" only when everybody speaks Russian and they don't have to learn the local language.

In addition, check the meaning of the word "colonialism" (which you didn't seem to be sure of). This is the definition from Encyclopedia Britannica, and let's check how much it applies to Russia:
"Control by one power over a dependent area or people [check]. The purposes of colonialism include economic exploitation of the colony's natural resources [check], creation of new markets for the colonizer [check], and extension of the colonizer's way of life beyond its national borders [check]."
Remarkably, the definition corresponds 100% to Russia both during the Czars' times, during the Soviet time, as well as today.

Also, you said:
"Descendants in 2,3, o 4 generations of the people arrived in Estonia in the Soviet time are more Estonian than the today’s Estonian President and some Estonian politicians."
So, are you saying that "more Estonian" means not wanting to learn and speak the Estonian language, accepting the flag of Russia rather that of Estonia, etc?

And, of course, everything is topped by this:
"Estonia entered into the USSR by good will and by free choice".
Just as well you could have said that victims of rape get raped by "free choice", because they didn't kick and scream enough.
Well, I truly wish you not to experience such "free choice".

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - n/a

n/a — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:07:19 +01:00

"You are not right about access to voting in the USSR - everybody was allowed, but today in Estonia and Latvia a lot of persons are not allowed." -- Helga

What in the world are you talking about, lady? Comparing voting in USSR with voting in today's Estonia or Latvia is worse then comparing apples with oranges! They say that according to its constitution (which I haven't read) the USSR was one of the most democratic countries. But we all know that in practice it was one of the least democratic ones - even much worse then Russian whining about situation in the Baltic states (but not that much worse then today's Russia, though).
And isn't it hypocritical to whine about citizens not being allowed to vote in the Baltic states? How many countries are there where non-citizens can vote in national elections? And even for local elections - it's not a universal practice, either.
If anybody wants to vote, they can just become citizens, since requirements for that are certainly not the hardest in the world. One just doesn't have to be lazy and/or arrogant and learn the language and history of the land he/she lives.

Estonian "democracy" – the right to free expression has only one who is thinking like President - n/a

n/a — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:42:00 +01:00

"...persons came in the Soviet time are mostly the victims of the Soviet regim - they didn't choose to emigrate to Estonia but were obliged by sistem (headed by communists of all Soviet Republics, not only by Russians)" --Helga

Yes, they were victimized by their own government back in Russia, but I have never heard of forceful deportations of Russians to countries occupied by Russia (doesn't matter if you call it the USSR or not). Could you provide some references that this was the case, and not that those Russians more or less voluntarily went in search of a "better life"?
And I didn't know that the "re-population" of the occupied (and partially "cleansed" territories was decided somewhere in, e.g., Tashkent and not Moscow, as you claim. Any sources for that information?

"all people want to know languages and try to do it. But it is not always possible, especially if the politics of the Government is aimed for apartheid and if the person has not a special talent." --Helga

So, you're saying that Russians in the Baltic states couldn't learn the language not because of discontent of the local people, but because the Soviet government was constantly (for 50 years) implementing apartheid policies against doing so? Wow, I never knew that!
And sorry to say that, but if a person cannot learn 200 words and 50 phrases during his lifetime to be able to communicate with the people (in whose land he lives) even on a most basic level, then it has nothing to do with a lack of a "special talent" - either that person has no respect for others, or he's a total moron.
And if we're speaking about post-Soviet time, why is it those foreigners from Europe and elsewhere who have come to live here can learn the language, but a Russian born in Estonia (for example) cannot?

Persecution of dissidents in Estonia - n/a

n/a — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:17:56 +01:00

"The Estonians had never been "the second classe" citizens in the Soviet time - they ruled their country by themselves - exactly as today (Laar, Ansip & C°). But today the Estonians are the slaves of the USA fogetting own dignity and national honour..." --Helga

Whom are you kidding, lady?! Maybe you'll say now that Americans are killing Russians in Estonia or deporting them? I don't wish you and other Russians who whine about "human right abuses" in the Baltic states to experience even 1% of the treatment that Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians received by the Great "Liberator" Mother Russia after "liberating" them during and then again after WWII.
How many Russians have been killed or deported to Siberia by the Estonian government? Tens upon tens of thousands (as it happened with Balts as they were being "liberated" by the "peace loving" Russians)? Hundreds? Tens? Maybe just one? Right! So stop lying.

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - F W de Clerk

F W de Clerk — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:52:16 +01:00

I agree with Helga that agitating a second state language is the best way to establish an apartheid system.

Just like we Dutch settlers wanted to keep our own language and culture in South Africa and keep ourselves separate from the blacks, I can understand why Russian settlers like Helga want to keep the Russian "whites" seperate from the Estonian "blacks".

Fight integration!

Classification of the Russianspeakings of Estonia - History teacher

History teacher — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:39:06 +01:00

Helga, did you leave school at a young age? You seem very ignorant.

The earliest slavic tribe in the region where the Krivichs, who lived in eastern Latvia since 6th century. At that time Finnic tribes closely related to Estonians such as Ingrians and Votes (who are almost extinct now) covered all the territory from the eastern side of Narva and Lake Peipsi to the area of St Petersburg, while Setos covered the area south and Estonians covered the west.

Russians came from the south around 1558 and attempted to conquer the Estonians, Ingrians and Votes but Sweden pushed back. Only in 17th Century did the Old Believers arrive on the Peipsi shore with the permission of the Swedish who controlled Estonia then.

True colonialism began when Russia pushed Sweden out in the 18th century and attempted to Russify Estonians, Ingrians and Votes. Thank God that Estonia found indpendence in 1920, the unlucky Ingrians and Votes who remained in Soviet Russia were genocided.

During Soviet occupation all Estonians were pushed out from Narva and Ida Viru country and Russian settlers were moved in.