A GLANCE AT ESTONIA - ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Comments

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - n/a

n/a — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:07:19 +01:00

"You are not right about access to voting in the USSR - everybody was allowed, but today in Estonia and Latvia a lot of persons are not allowed." -- Helga

What in the world are you talking about, lady? Comparing voting in USSR with voting in today's Estonia or Latvia is worse then comparing apples with oranges! They say that according to its constitution (which I haven't read) the USSR was one of the most democratic countries. But we all know that in practice it was one of the least democratic ones - even much worse then Russian whining about situation in the Baltic states (but not that much worse then today's Russia, though).
And isn't it hypocritical to whine about citizens not being allowed to vote in the Baltic states? How many countries are there where non-citizens can vote in national elections? And even for local elections - it's not a universal practice, either.
If anybody wants to vote, they can just become citizens, since requirements for that are certainly not the hardest in the world. One just doesn't have to be lazy and/or arrogant and learn the language and history of the land he/she lives.

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Helga

Helga — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:48:30 +01:00

Dear Ross,

I published Your comment, the Babel sistem blocked it for some reason. I hope You feel a little bit better after that.

The first words of Your previous comment are: "you must be an incredibly arrogant person" - it's not nice and it doesn't make You a honour.

You are not right about access to voting in the USSR - everybody was allowed, but today in Estonia and Latvia a lot of persons are not allowed. There is some petition into European Parliament with request to give them a right to vote - You can help these people if You want to show that the EU is more equal than the USSR.

I know more about the EU than You think, You can tell Your fairy-tales about the EU to some naìve persons - maybe they will beleive ;-).

Sveden seems to be the best and the equalest EU country, but there are the poor without a house and without food, I know personnally some poor Sveden who have not any TV.

My texts don't contain the description of Russia, You have immaginated it.
Why do You read between the lines how wonderful Russian existence is? I have never been in Russia and I can't tell anythong about it ... ;-). I can only advice You to free You mind from obsession of Russia.

The Estonian people call today's Estonian state "Parody of a normal state", life in Estonia seems to be a theatre of absurds with a lot of innocent victims.

My family lived in Estonia under the "USSR boot", under the "Pàts boot", under the all other boots including the "EU boot", for them the "USSR boot" was not the worst. Surelly, the USSR had problems, but today,under the "EU boots",there are much more problems and injustices.

I have no only one ancestor but a large group of ancestors of all social categories, who lived in Estonia from the savage times.

My describing of Your behavour You could interprete as a valutation based onthe science ;-).

You idealize the Scandinavian countries, but the level of mentally retarded persons and invalids is higher there than in Estonia and ex USSR countries.
You are right that the capitalism offered the full shops, but here is a sad but - the quality of products is very low (eccept for cars, surelly ). In the USSR the shop were semi-empty but the people had all the necessary, today we have hungry and malnourished people, we have children searching forfood in the rubbish. TB and other contagious deases are returned.

Social security in the EU (ha-ha-ha-ha-ha...) - You see the EU like anUtopia. Let discuss about it a little bit later.
You are right about the freedom of movement else.

How many ehnic groups and languages the USSR had? How many national minorities the today's Russia has? Count them.

If a judge reject an apply based on law it means the judge is inequal and corrupted. Do You mean the EU judges are corrupted?
Do You know that the Eu court of Strasbourg reject all the applies concerning the trafficking of the children by social workers and Youth courts in Italia? Nice "security" that protects and develops the criminality...

I have been waiting from You some concret example and the prooves of written in the article You linked ;-).

Best regardes!

TO VLADIMIROVICH
А Вы мне не объясните на кого я работаю?

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - vladimirovitch

vladimirovitch — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:35:26 +01:00

na kogo rabotaem? net problem,ponjal.no ploho,o4en ploho,smotri ,kak bi raboty ne poterjat.

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Ross

Ross — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:10:43 +01:00

Helga (?)

The blogpost I was speaking about was not automatically censored by Babel's system as you have said - a human being did it. What I wrote was not at all insulting. In it , amongst many other points that were not about you, I occasionally expressed my opinion that you have a myopic view of history - and that you are hypocritical. I gave reasons for why I considered you to be a hypocrite - and basically they were because you have done exactly the same thing that you accused me of. You call me crazy - I know I'm not. I call you a hypocrite - and of course you think you are not.

You wrote about me "Also, Your crude manners and impulsiveness are quite funny ".... "The psychiatrist can help You to feel more calm " etc etc. - all terms which I could consider insulting - but do not - as my sense of self is not dependent on what third parties think of me - or particular views of history.

You wrote" ....and with it I could go to the Court to ask the damage of injuries and insult of my honour"

Oh, I see, using fear as a weapon to try and control other people's behaviour and stifle free expression??? Where have we seen this before???

The 'case' would be based on non-sensical grounds and would be thrown out. Do you know so little about the judicial processes? Rather than let the legal system take care of the real criminals in society you'd prefer to clutter it up with petty squabbles over the slightest insult to your 'honour'???? Honour has to exist in the first place. Only egos get insulted. A truly honourable person is not offended by other people's opinions of what they think.

In that post I pointed out the fallacy of your arguments. I mentioned that , had Estonia not been forced to join the Soviet Union, it would have been AT LEAST as wealthy by now as the rest of the Scandinavian countries. Estonians are a bright and industrious people - this is obvious from the great growth since being freed of the shackles of the Soviet system.

You did not agree with that and said that you saw some poor people in Sweden too. I responded (in the missing post which you censored) by pointing out that the poor in Sweden have color televisions - enough food - and they also have a generous social security. However - even in the richest country on earth - if people choose to drink and gamble etc - nothing will stop them from entering the poorhouse.

You also suggested the EU might learn something from the Soviet Union, there you go again, pining for the good old days. I countered this by pointing out the rather obvious fact that even at its height the Soviet Union had FAR LESS people than the EU did. The EU has at least 25 different ethnic groups and twenty or more languages (unlike the Soviet Union) and manages to allow everyone to vote - unlike the Soviet Union.
No one is starving in the EU , the shops are all full - unlike the Soviet Union. There is almost universal meaningful social security (unlike the former Soviet Union had - and unlike Russia has). People are free to move around to any area and work wherever they like - unlike in the former Soviet Union.

The EU is not about territorial conquest or nationalism (unlike Russia). Profits and wealth are spread more evenly throughout and between member states - unlike Russia.

Russia has become a bogeyman for many people because they associate it's physical size (1/6th of the earths land surface) with it's imagined power. However - when you look a it - it is only less than 150 million people. And many of those are poor - and many of those are blighted by things such as alcoholism and access to poor health care facilities has increased the spread of TB and Aids etc that would have been ringing alarm bells decades ago in any western country. Again, Russian people are by and large warm-hearted good people but it only takes a few bad apples to wreck the society. And having been under a bad system for so long has not helped.

You wrote "...Inguries and insults are not an opinion or argument, "

whoever said they were???

"...but only demonstration of the writer's pathological education and personal problems. "

now who is being insulting here - yet thinking that they are cleverly disguising the insults?? You are quite transparent.

"...It isn't nice to show it to everybody, is it?"

You've been showing your pro-Russian biases in all your posts - and replies - not just to me. You are overly sensitive to any and all criticism and your first defence is to talk about them having psychological problems. Something you've learned that facile tactic from studying the Soviet system maybe?

Another thing - your 'credentials' are misleading. when you say one ancestor was in Estonia 300 years ago. Lets say that's maybe 8 generation. All that means is that the male person with the same surname and his male descendants (assuming they passed the surname on) may have been living in Estonia all that time. The rest of them, the mother's, the mother's father's, father's mother's etc - could have all come from Russia or anywhere else for that matter. So it doesn't mean much unless you qualify it.

You structure your ego around having some wonderful insight into the ills of Estonian life and we read between the lines how wonderful Russian existence is. Other people , including those who have actually suffered under the Soviet/Russian boot know better. You don't like to hear that and it seems you are set on continually trying to defend the indefensible.

This is a waste of your time . It doesn't benefit you.

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Helga

Helga — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:26:44 +01:00

Dear Ross,

1. I'm not Olga and Your insistance in changing my name shows a scarsity of good manners.

2. I have worned that all bad-mannered comments will be removed. Your last post was censored by Babel's sistem and with it I could go to the Court to ask the damage of injuries and insult of my honour. J can block the ID-adress of Your computer, but I didn't do it with aim to permit You to converse here, hoping You cease to use bad manners.

3. I'd like to see here "valid arguments" but I see mostly the inguries of my mental health and personality. It isn't interesting for anybody. Inguries and insults are not an opinion or argument, but only demonstration of the writer's pathological education and personal problems. It isn't nice to show it to everybody, is it?

4. New blogs are always welcome. One new blog against me... it praises me ;-)...

5. Let's begin a dialogue! Do explain why are You afraid to use Your name? What country are You from? What is Your nationality? How long time have You lived (or been) in Estonia? What kind of diploma do You have to be able to say : "This shows your inherent biases and your absolute lack of intellectual integrity"?

6. Take one concrete argument and begin a normal critics (it means without injuries and insults), indicating the source and describing Your opinion.

Best regards!

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Ross

Ross — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 06:38:40 +01:00

Olga

It's obvious you give yourself the role of chief censor here - you only print what is favourable to yoursled and discard everything else.

Again, how hypocritical of you. Afraid of criticism and the exposure of your shallow arguments aren't you?

You write :

"....And don't be ashamed of Your name - use it next time! Are You afraid of some repression?'

You've refused to display my last post here. So there is no 'next time' Who is afraid of repression then?

Who is being gutless?

Why be afraid of what people say?

I see you don't have the backbone to publish comments made by other people to your replies in this blog. You act as a censor. You cannot give good grounds for blocking my rights to free expression. You cannot offer valid arguments against the points I make. You want to hold onto your negativity and stereotypes it seems.

Anything that criticises you , accuses you of hypocrisy , or puts forward valid arguments against your theories you block from allowing it to be shared other readers.

This shows your inherent biases and your absolute lack of intellectual integrity. Is your ego so fragile it cannot tolerate any imagined criticism? If you continue to take that stance - what will happen is that people will write you off as an opinionated and close-minded biased person who cannot tolerate new ideas. Your blog will reflect that stagnancy and openness to change.

If YOU don't want to be honest, then we will have to open another forum , another blog, - where YOUR stance is publicly criticized and YOU will have no control over what is said.

However unlike the repressive (very soviet-style) attitude you have - you will still be welcome to say whatever you want and your comments will not be blocked (barring swearing of course!) . Real freedom of expression.

Now let's see - will you have the courage to publish these paragraphs?

Now here's a couple of quotes you might like to think about:

‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it' - Voltaire

The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between political parties either--but right through every human heart.

-Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Helga

Helga — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 00:48:50 +01:00

Dear Ross, an anonimous, an Soviet, sorry, European Union being without name, without identity, without natinonality...

In the Soviet time such a lost being like You were called "sovok" (from "soviet"), now we are in a new Union and the European citizenship choosen by You for Your national identity attests of the "sovok" state of Your soul... (saying
European citizenship it's the same to say "Soviet citizen").
Why are You ashamed of Your name and nationality?

If You really want to understand better the Estonian events You should began to study - the pap in Your head needs to be put in order. The psychiatrist can help You to feel more calm and not to have more a desire to insult other persons
in Internet.

The question of pathological aggressivity consists in the form, not in ideas.

You don't know who I am, what I have done in my life, what I'm doing now - therewith all Your suppositions about me and about my life are only aggressive insult of my personality and expression of Your bad education.
You have tried to describe me without knowing anything about me and as a result we have a Your description of Yourself - in the psychitry such a behavour is called the "projective" expression. Now we know enough about Your problems and
sufferings.

The history of Estonia is very complex and the European history of XX century is particullary complex. Too primitive and partial sights conduct You to become a "parrot" of old-fashioned anti-Soviet primitive propaganda. If You don't
think by yourself and repeate the cheep propaganda You become a victim of this propaganda.

Try to understand that the Estonians wanted to install the Soviet regime because the Pàts dictatorship was very terrible and infamous regime. The Estonians wanted to join the USSR to protect themselves against Hitler and to devepole own economy. It was a choice. The assertions of "occupation" - see above and see "Estonia in the dates" post.

You should speak with independent persons and not only with some one who was payd by BBC or some other propagandist, or who was a victim of regime. Many citizens of Slovachia, Chech, Ungary, Latvia and ... dream of returning of the
Soviet times, surelly the politicians who seized the power doesn't dream it - they earn enough with the drug, speculations and human trafficking. When You tell about people's opinion You have to indicate all the opinions and not only one (Yours).

What do You mean with a term "The standard of living"? The quality of life or the model of behavour? The model of common behavour? In this case You are repeating the vague term without comprehension.
The "standards of living" in Norway, Sveden and Denmark have a lot of negative problems in all aspects of the frase's meaning. When I visited these countries it was a great disapointment for me - the division to the social classes is the same like in Soviet society and the level of life of the corresponding classes is exactly the same (the poors stay worse, however). The propaganda of the presumed high level of life in those countries was popular in the Soviet time and was used to destroy the USSR, now everyone can see that it was false. Surelly, Sveden is famous about its
"glasnost" (transparency).

Today's European Union uses the USSR methods of the "development" of economy and causes a great damage to all European countries. The EU repeats the USSR's faults - in this case won't You say that the "assimilation" into the EU was a step backwards for Estonia?

Are You really sure that the Estonians can do all they want? Are You capable to enrich such a assertion with the concrete examples in the different sphears? And don't foget about the hand of Brussel and the boot of the USA!

Do You mean the Setus want to become an independent state? Do You know that a Setu festival will be held in Russia in 26 August? That the Estonian Setus and the Krasnojarsk Setus are invited to partecipate there?
Do You know some Karelian? Do You know that Estonia, Latvia, Ukraina and maybe some other ex-Soviet countries took part in the extermination of the Karelians in the post-Soviet time? In my opiniom You don't know thw question, that's
why I explane it. The Karelians were a savage and incivilized people in the tsar time. After the revolution the Soviet Government began to help the Karelians and other savage peoples. When I was young, in the time of my studies, I had some Karelian study-mates. They came in Estonian Soviet Republic to improve their life - they lived in the tents in Karelia. There was a great risk of total extermination of such nations. USSR's Government tried to give some work and some house to these people. How You know, it very difficult to give a work and a house to all people, in today's UE
You can see a lot of homelesses, so the Government offered to these people a military peacful service in the Soviet Army. Consequently, a lot of Karelians came in Estonia as militar and worked for good of Estonia: built houses, maintained the forests and sea, ways and did other socially usefyl work.
I know that You don't know that in the Soviet time the national cultures were the great human value. Every year in every school or plant the cultural holidays were organized. The Russian students/workers prepared the Russian
concert/performance program, the Estonian students - the Estonian consert, the Karelians - Karelian one ecc., these concerts were very intersting and You could get aquainted with other cultures. The Government organized the professional conserts of different cultures. There were organized festivals too - where every simple person might take part.
EU have to learn better this positive example of the "union in diversity".
After the USSR crashing the Estonian Governments proclaimed the Karelians as "Russian monsters" (using the imprecations and insults - "vene pàtt" - "vene vàrdjas" - I don't know English imprecations that's why I used the word "monsters"). THe Soviet Army (except the Estonian soldiers, surelly) was asked for leaving Estonia - so, the part of
Karelians were obliged to go out with the Soviet Army and a part of them became homeless and unimployed, the births diminished.
Today's Russian Government has a program of help and culture development for small peoples - You can see it on the site of Russian Government. I really don't know if the Estonian Government do something for the Estonian national minorities - there are no information. The Russian-speaking Estonian minorities suffer discrimiantion, segregation and marginalization in Estonia, the special program for them doesn't exist.

You should learn a matter better before barking.

I see You like to interfere into the questions of other nations without knowlidge of the questions - do better something for Your country! Surelly, You can be a young Estonian, so: learn more and don't be superficial!

Do You know something about the Allan Dallas doctrine (1945)? You seem quite to be a product (victim) of the politics offered by Dallas ...

Your crude manners and impulsiveness are quite funny and show excplitly the problems of the today's young of the

European Union.

And don't be ashamed of Your name - use it next time! Are You afraid of some repression?

Best regards!

PS: read the instruction of good manners - You need it!

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Helga

Helga — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 00:44:38 +01:00

Dear Al,

You scould begin to study the history and begin to think and analize with Your own head. At the moment You are repeating without thinking the false ideas of some psychopathic-extremist. The lies and falsehoods are Yours.
While we talk about the history we have the real facts, the false facts and the personal ideas and valutations.Here we talk about facts only:

1. Estonia was never invided by Stalin. The Soviet military bases was opened like the today's Nato/Americans' bases are opened around the world. The dictator Pàts wanted these bases and the Soviet (not REd) army was entered with his
and general Laidoner permission and inviting.The Government was replaced by dicatator Pàts who choosed the candidats - not the Parliament ;-))). See the serious scientific books of the history.

2. The Estonian Parliament choosen by the Estonians and composed of the ethnic Estonians proclaimed Estonia a Socialist Republic and made a request to join the USSR on July 1940.

3. In the 1941-1953 there were many repression in the USSR - against all the nationalities, including the Russians. I see that You didn't read my text - I have clealy indicated that the Estonian Soviet Government, composed of the ethnic Estonians, organized the crimes and repressions against the Estonians and the Russians who was living in Estonia.

4. The term "genocide" has a definition (see the corresponding Convention). The today's politics of the Estonian Government (points B,C,D) are more similar to genocide than the Soviet politics of the 1941-1953 (point A).

5. Unfortunately, You have a rong idea about receiving of the Estonian citizenship: the Estonian language examination is not easy, the printed exam test has the incoherent and the inconsistent choice of answeres, the commission often humiliates and insults the persons. The test You call "basic sivil test" is the exam which controls the knowlwdge of the Constitution and the Law about foreignes. To pass it You must know both very well. To have a right to citizenchip the person must ricognize the false propaganda facts, like the occupation by the Soviet Union in the 1940 - the
conscious people, who want to have a right to freedom of opinion and expression, are disgusted of that.

6. The local Estonian mass-media products doesn't exist almost - there is only Err Tv and maybe some more channel of low quality in the Russian language (please, list it!). The Russian-speakings of Estonia watch the Russian channels.

The local newspapars in Russian have the lowest quality and are written by the Estonians in very bad Russian with the grammar and style mistakes. It's almost impossible to read it. So, the Russian-speakings have access only to Russian TV and journals and consequently doesn't receive the Estonian and European information.
If You see some Russian journal or newspaper You can see a lot of the Russian propaganda against Europe there.
Read the ONU rapport about it.

7. The Russian-speaking of the tsar-time had the right to citizenship from 1918. Their descendants are not integrated but only have the Estonian citizenship by right of "blood". To have the citizenship doesn't mean to be integrated.

8. In 1920 the Soviet Union didn't exist yet ;-). There was the bolshevics-criminals...

9. Almost all countries ricognized Estonia as a legal part of the USSR, only the USA and some another country didn't - it was used for antiSoviet propaganda.

10. In 1944 Estonia didn't "reclaimed" its indipendence - the request of parting with the USSR wasn't done. There was a Nazis' flag on the Pikk Herman tower when the Soviet army arrived, below it was a small Estonian flag of the Estonian Nazis.

11. Estonia was a regular member of the Soviet Union - that's why it is not possible to assert about "Soviet occupation" in 1944, the Soviet Army (not "Red Army") liberated the Estonian Soviet Republic. There was many Estonians in the Soviet Army.

12. Your trying to justify the Estonian Nazis is very shameful - the Estonian Nazis joined Hitler and his ideas. This is the shamefullist fact in the history of Estonia and You cannot either repair it or justify it.

13. The Russuian-speaking part of the Estonians have right to second official language in Estonia - Russian, otherwise all the territories with the Russian-speaking Estonians must be given freedom and independence of Estonia. My
classification of the Rususian-speakings of Estonia You can see at the my another blog: http://helganukk.blogspot.com

(the post about the programm of integration).

Do return to the reality! Open the books and start learning! Begin thinking!
And don't be ashamed of Your name - use it!

Best regards!

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Ross

Ross — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 05:55:42 +01:00

Helga -

Well, unless you are way more clever than I at first thought - I'll have to admit my mistake and take back what you said about you being a guy. However - as fraud is so prevalent on the Net - I guess it's still possible!

I don't agree with anything else you put forward though - other than the EU's commonly accepted 'values' - which are actually universal values which are adopted (in theory) by most countries.

Helga writes: "....If You beleive in existance of occupation from 1940 without thincking and analysing, I soppose You wuould be a victim of manipulation and fals propaganda."

Of course it was an occupation - why, what do you call it?

This is an historical fact. I am not at all a victim of propaganda. I have a mind, eyes , ears - and I use them. Ask ANY Estonian living abroad especially the older generation who HAD to leave - and MOST of those living in Estonia now - and they will agree with that. Why was Estonia the LAST to join the Soviet Union and the very first to leave? Because they all thought it was a great idea??? Really ???

Do you SERIOUSLY think - if Estonia was allowed to remain neutral - and was NOT occupied by the Soviet Union - that it would NOT have AT LEAST the standard of living of Denmark or Sweden or Norway by now? Can you not see that the forced assimilation into the Soviet Union was a backward step for Estonia?

Helga writes "...........I wonder at flight of Your fantasy and its unhealthy elements, at Your aggression, and at Your intollerance at others' opinion. If You see some "lie" or "distorsion""

Please indicate the 'aggression', 'intolerance at others' opinion' I am alleged to have presented.
I think the boot is on the other foot - if someone disagrees with what YOU say - you automatically see it as 'aggression' & 'intolerance'. A very fascist attitude I must say! You are being overly sensitive.

I guess you're not a very happy person in general - that's why you are whingeing about imagined grievances. You won't find the happiness you seek by complaining about things that do not really affect you. Each day is important - use it to build your life up! Who wants to listen to a whinger? There's more than a million good-natured Estonian people that do not have a chip on their shoulder and are getting on productively with their lives. That can be seen by the enormous change in Estonia since 1989 - since Estonians had the freedom to do what they wanted and better their own lives - without being told by the foreigners in Moscow what they had to do and when to do it.

I think it's hypocritical of you to defend Russians living in Estonia for generations (which obviously many have) but at the same time you mention NOTHING about the Estonians (Setu etc) now living around Petseri - and their rights in Russia. Why aren't you standing up for their rights to their culture and land and language etc etc ?

Similarly you make no mention of the fate of Karelians - fellow Finno-ugric people whose lands were taken and culture subsumed into that wonderful Soviet Union (now Russia).

And Russians who live in Estonia and have done for generations CAN get Estonian passports and SHOULD be able to speak Estonian. If after generations they don't then that would indicate a stubborness to hold onto a culture and language they consider superior. I cannot imagine that is possible after several generations. It may have been possible centuries ago but not now.

I think you imagine I have something against Russians. That is not the case. I know many Russian people. I like them. I had Estonian-Russian friends in Estonia when I lived there. They had no hatred towards Estonians as a race that I was aware of.

The thing is though - speaking generally - for some reason Russians in Russia need to have a macho leader - be it a Tsar, Lenin, Stalin, Kruschev, Putin etc - maybe because they are a proud people from a big country - with their own language and culture and even alphabet. Following such leaders has cost them a lot - there's no need to explain the obvious here.

I suggest , seeing you are an Estonian therefore an EU citizen (as am I) that you take advantage of that fact - and go and visit other former Soviet bloc countries and ask people there what they think of Russia.

Go on, rather than just listen to me - go and ask people who actually lived through it - get their opinion.

Go to countries like the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary - and ask them how they liked either their countries being actually invaded by Russia or their corrupt leaders being propped up by the Soviet (a.k.a.Russian ) government for 50 years post WW2. And , if you can afford it - go to countries like the UK, Canada Australia and the USA - where you'll find MILLIONS of people and their descendants who escaped the Soviet Union. Ask them whether they think the Soviet Union (centred in Moscow and totally dominated by Russians) - was good for their country/culture. We're talking Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Bulgarians, White Russians - and even Russians themselves etc etc etc

I already know the answers you'll get. Also, despite the Soviet propaganda - here's some news for you - they didn't really like to be forced to learn Russian (the language of international friendship) to be able to get 'good' jobs. And that was the least of their worries.

So, let me guess, you think the Bronze Soldier statue, the monument to Soviet Army soldiers , should have stayed where it was, right? It makes me laugh when I see Russians disingenuously claim that they themselves were the victims of the Soviet Union rather than , as is clearly the case, its main benefactors.

It would be completely hypocritical of Russians to complain about a statue of Red Army (not RUSSIAN) soldiers - if they themselves were victims of the Soviet Union - don't you think?

I know us humans are great at rationalizations - perhaps you could have a go at that one? Please - I'm already fascinated by your ability to distort the truth. Here's a chance to outdo yourself.

In any case we can't cry over spilt milk The past is the past. You can't live in it. Complaining about it is completely useless - and you'll get no sympathy except from fellow losers when it is about things that do not (or should not) affect you personally, day to day But you can use the past to learn from.

And now for a final truism - Life is what we make it - and each day we ourselves are making history. If you want a good outcome - act and think positively.

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Al

Al — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 21:09:41 +01:00

Sorry, but your facts regarding Russia and Estonia, and Estonian Russians are wrong. Estonia was invaded by Stalin's 80,000 troops and the parliament was replaced and forced, and this resulted in annexation (this means occupation).
Before World War II there were indeed a population of around 5-8% of Russians, whereas after World War II it shot up to 40%, from which it has reduced to nearly 20% today.
By not condemning the genocide that was carried out on hundreds of thousands of Estonians by the Soviet Union you are exposing yourself to be an apologist, protecting Soviet criminals.
I live in Estonia and can say that Russian speaking people here do not live in fear. They can become Estonian citizens very easily, just passing an easy language test and basic civic facts test. Many things, including official documents, shop products, radio stations, even news on national TV broadcast is in Russian, together with Estonian (80-90%).
You have described that you regard Americans and other foreigners as occupiers. This is truly ironic coming from a person from Russian background. Yes, there are Russians from the tsarist times (18-19 century), but they constituted a much smaller minority and had integrated much better. They are not denied citizenship.
Estonia did not 'just become independent' in 1920, there was a war between Estonians and the Soviet Union which resulted in Russia accepting and signing the Peace Treaty of Tartu, where it expressly denied any rights over Estonian territory for eternity. Juridically, Estonian has been a free country, recognized by most Western states since then, and was never recognized as a part of the Soviet Union. When the Germans LEFT Tallin in 1944, Estonia reclaimed it's independence and raised the Blue Black and White flag on the Hermann Tower. When the Red Army came in, they replaced the ESTONIAN flag with the Soviet one, they did not bring down the German one. Hence, they were not liberating this country, but replacing one occupier for another. Yes, there were crimes committed by the Nazis in Estonia, and there were some Estonian collaborators. However, the Estonians that took up arms against the invading Red Army in 1944 in their majority did not support Hitler, but were fighting for their country. Finland did the same, only that they managed to remain independent (thanks to a lot of help form German armament).
Sorry, but the fact is that you wrote false information.
I believe in the human rights of everyone, of any nationality or ethnic or religious group in Estonia, be it Estonian, Russian, Finnish, Ukrainian, Jewish, American or anyone else.

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Helga

Helga — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:45:25 +01:00

Dear Ross,

I little information for You:

I'm a certified pure-blood Estonian and I have not any relative in "Peterburi" or in Russia. My relatives are documentally registered in Estonia from 1600. A part of my family are the Russian-speaking Estonians, another part are the Estonian-speaking, nobody is Russian.

I have the Estonian citizenship and I have all tipe of Estonian passports and another documents - this is the right of pure-Estonian-blood persons in Estonia.
If You beleive in existance of occupation from 1940 without thincking and analysing, I soppose You wuould be a victim of manipulation and fals propaganda.

Many Estonians are completely agree with me.

I wonder at flight of Your fantasy and its unhealthy elements, at Your aggression, and at Your intollerance at others' opinion. If You see some "lie" or "distorsion" You can tranquilly show it and describe Your version.

Your hatred to the Russians and Russia is a little bit pathological.

I leave here Your comment only to demonstrate for all European readers the pathological aggressivity, language-based hatred, intollerance, absens of respect, condition of psyche and mental health - which are present between the people today.

The European Union's values are the rispect of human right and cultural diversity, the slogan is "Together in diversity!", this year is the year of Intercultural Dialogue ...

I hope if the polticians see such full of hatred commentaries as Yours one is, they will try to find some remedy to cure it...

Best regards!

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Ross

Ross — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:27:23 +01:00

Wu - you are right . You don't even have to read between the line to see 'Helga' is obviously a Russian living in Estonia. I know several Estonians - native and Eestlased and consequently have some insight into the grammatical and spelling mistakes they are likely to make when they write in English (placement of adjectival phrases, use of articles etc).

''Helga's' litany against Estonia's treatment of its former occupiers does not match the lingusitic errors of an Estonian. It is obviously the work of a Russian native speaker with a barrow of imagined grievances to push. 'Helga' would also know that no Estonian in their right mind would agree with the lies and distortions he has written. Yes, Helga is no doubt a 'he'.

Perhaps 'Helga' should move back to Peterburi? Or does he actually like the fact that he now lives inthe EU - and though not yet having a valid EU passport - has available to him freedoms and facilities he would never have in Russia.

Simply, if you don't like it - you are free to leave. In fact, Putin has organised a system where Russia will pay you to reurn. So what's stopping you, Ivan?

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Helga

Helga — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:24:56 +01:00

THE PHILOLOGISTS ARE WELLCOME TO CORRECT THE MISTAKES!

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Helga

Helga — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:16:09 +01:00

Dear Martin 123,

The site You indicated is not impartial, there is the manipulated information and only a half of the truth.

You can see the site with opposite information: http://npest.wordpress.com , some antifascists' sites and the work of Lauri Malksoo "The aspects of annexation", the Finnish journalist Leena Hietanen articles and the recently piblished book;

http://pribalty.wordpress.com/2007/...
(Черниченко: Оккупации не было);

Финская журналистка: музей оккупации отрицает холокост (The Finnish journalist: the Museum of occupation denies the Holocaust)
Автор: rus.DELFI.ee
Источник: http://rus.delfi.ee/archive/article...

I have seen the indcated by You site and the Estonian Museum of Occupation and in the future I'll tell about it too.

Best regards,

Helga

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - Helga

Helga — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:01:09 +01:00

Dear Shewantsnorevenge ,

Before insulting me of “writing inaccuracies and lies and fanning the hysteria” You have to learn the question impartially. Insulting without prooves shows the bad education only and absence of knowledge.

A years ago it was popular to say bad words about socialist time, but now is the moment to weigh up its positive sides too – without hysterics and obsession. Denial of positive results of socialism is not intelligent action.

I’m glad for You feel “fresh and organic” the deep-frozen and reheated restorants’ food (in Estonia the firm “Eesti eine” prepares the deep-frozen dishes for restorants). The “organic items” covered with antibacterical chemical substances are no more organical. It seems that You are content with name of product only – without seeing its quality and essence. The Estonians have lost the natural foods only about 17 years ego and remember yet a normal foods, You have just fogotten it, or maybe You have never eaten it….

Such a sorrow for You to hear that the Estonians doesn’t like economic slavery and are sure to be capable to create own economy! Before today the foreigners have used Estonia for unfair affairs and for launder money, the children’s prostitution was organized just by these foreign “businessmen”, thrafficking of young women too. The nature has been polluted by these foreigners. Surelly, the foreigner have built a lot of hotels and casino… but to increase the exploitation of prostitutes and launder the hidden money…
I’m a pure-blood Estonian and for me the today’s foreigners are “new economic occupants”. More, the today’s Estonian president of American nationality is a motive of serious shame for me and for another Estonians (both Estonian-speaking and Russian-speaking).

The language learning is a good and right action, the assimilation – is the violation of human rights. You have written by yourself that to live (survive) in Estonia is necessary to assimilate – that means the denial of right to cultural and national identity, the necessity to play an theater game. The assimilated people hate Estonia and the Estonians in their hearts, they are not fully happy.
In USA the persons have right to continue to be themselves, without nessecity to pretend to be the native americans. The tension in the Estonian society is so high that the people are afraid of new disorders.

I see You doesn’t understand the difference between the foreigners in America and Estonian Russians in Estonia. Estonian Russians are the native and indigenous people on the Estonian territory – not the recently arrived foreigners or imigrants – they have not another place where live and another mother-land. The Russian Russians and the Estonian Russians are not the same thing.
The Estonian politicians have proclaimed a lot of falses and lies via mass-media about situation. By this blog I try to present the hidden information and tell about real situation.
The people immigrated in Estonia in the soviet time couldn’t refuse to transfer in Estonia in the past – do You know something about Gulag? These people have right to hate Estonian and Russian soviet governments, aren’t? Estonian and Russian governments have to recompense these people, havn’t they? Do You know the methods of teaching of Estonian in Estonia? You don’t beleive but it is “guess the grammatic by oneself”…

A great part of Estonian Russians mustn’t give the exame of Estonian language because they have right to citizenship as the indigenous people, that’s why I have never done the tests or exams of Estonian – inform You better the next time before writing about the questions of another countries!
I’m conscious that it’s useliss to hope to receive the apoligizes from You after Yours insults… Estonian president with American origin never apologize after own wrongdoings…. the Americans…

Best regards

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - martin123

martin123 — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 08:14:41 +01:00

Estonians never-ever fought for communism according to their free will (you're confusing Estonians with Latvians probably, who had the famous "red hunters" who were the most loyal supporters Lenin had).

As for Estonia being occupied by Soviet Russia (and Nazi Germany), please see http://www.okupatsioon.ee/.

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - shewantsnorevenge

shewantsnorevenge — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:36:36 +01:00

There are the complainers and the doers in every nation...
You sound like a bitter woman who misses the "good old days of communism", Helga. Perhaps your outlook wouldn't be quite so pessimistic if you had a job...

I hope your Estonian is better than your English, Helga, and that you have passed the language test

I saw the new doc movie "The Singing Revolution" about Estonia's history recently. I have had the pleasure to visit Estonia (not just Tallinn but also the countryside, Tartu, Parnu, Viljandi and also 3 of its largest islands) for business and vacations quite a few times during the last 15 or so years, and my experience has been quite different from what the sad blogger here is trying to paint...

I guess if one *chooses* to eat only McDonalds and other fast food then one can get the impression that even Estonia is a "fast food nation"! I have eaten home cooked meals at friends homes, gourmet dinners at fancy restaurants and simple dishes at local neighborhood diners - and I have always been impressed by how fresh and organic all the ingredients have been. In supermarkets one can choose locally grown organic items or less imported goods (hence the chemicals and preservatives) - just like in any other country I've visited in Europe and North America.

To say that Estonia is in economic slavery of Sweden, Finland, Germany and USA is absolute nonsense! "All economy is destroyed"??? Without the money from these "evil oppressors" unfortunately tiny Estonia would have no economy...

And "grave injustice and violation of human rights"??? In addition to the 10 or so native Estonians that I consider my friends I also know quite a few Russian Estonians. They have all *chosen* to learn the language and assimilate themselves, and they all live happy and fulfilled lives in Estonia. I asked their opinion about the situation during last year's Bronze Soldier fiasco and they all told me that it's only the Russians that *don't want to fit in* that cry "discrimination!" (Not to make it sound like I think that USA is the center of the universe but that's where I live and its laws are the ones I know the best, therefore I have to use USA as an example: everyone who wants to become a citizen of the United States MUST pass the language and civics test in order to qualify. And you can't get certain jobs (in the government, etc.) unless you are a citizen. All that just makes good sense, in my opinion. So I really don't understand why would anyone call it "discrimination, injustice and violation of human rights" that Estonia requires its immigrants to learn the native language and respect its laws?

Helga, I hope you will be able to put things in perspective and realize that no country is perfect (well, except for Norway, perhaps...). Sure, there is no need to sugarcoat reality - but trying to "reveal the dirty underbelly" by writing inaccuracies and lies and fanning the hysteria many Russians already feel is just plain wrong.

ESTONIA – A SHORT DESCRIPTION - wut

wut — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:35:00 +01:00

Generated blog? Author purportedly estonian, but the text - both the contents and spelling mistakes point to russian authorship.